The Great Resignation and lasting effects of COVID-19 have retailers fighting for talent. In what continues to be a very tight labor market, employers are enhancing employee benefits offerings hoping to recruit and retain employees. On this episode of We get work™, we discuss out of the box benefit offerings retail employers should consider, including the compliance and tax issues to keep in mind when implementing new benefits.
Alitia Faccone (00:02):
Welcome to Jackson Lewis's podcast, We get work. Focused solely on workplace issues, it is our job to help employers develop proactive strategies, strong policies, and business oriented solutions to cultivate and engaged, stable and inclusive workforce. Our podcast identifies issues that influence and impact the workplace and it's continuing evolution and helps answer the question on every employer's mind, how will my business be impacted?
Alitia Faccone (00:31):
The great resignation and lasting effects of COVID-19 have retailers fighting for talent. In what continues to be a very tight labor market, employers are enhancing employee benefit offerings hoping to recruit and retain employees. On this episode of We get work, we discuss out-of-the-box benefit offerings retail employers should consider including the compliance and tax issues to keep in mind when implementing new benefits.
Alitia Faccone (00:58):
Our hosts today are Laura Pierson-Scheinberg and Kellie Thomas, good friends and principal respectively in the San Francisco and Baltimore offices of Jackson Lewis. Laura, a member of the firm's labor group and co-leader of the retail industry group represents clients on their labor and employment needs as they arise. Kellie formally worked in the retail industry and understands the opportunities and challenges that retailers face. Her goal with every client is to provide practical and straightforward advice that breaks down and makes accessible the always complex regulations and issues affecting benefit plans.
Alitia Faccone (01:36):
Laura and Kellie, the question on everyone's mind today is how can I creatively incentivize my employees so I can win the fight on recruitment and retention in a tight labor market and how will this impact my business?
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (01:51):
Thanks for asking that question. I have been really getting a lot of these kind of questions from all my retail clients. As co-lead of the industry group in the retail space, I'm kind of wearing a new hat. And I've been a labor lawyer forever, my whole career. And I'm now looking at it with a different lens. And I'm hearing that employers are looking for creative benefit options to really recruit and retain employees in this time of the great resignation, that after coming out of COVID employees just have a really different view on what they value. And I keep getting this question. So obviously, Kellie, I think of you because you're such a fabulous benefits lawyer and I'm like, "Okay." What ideas are you seeing are clients having that you think are really creative that we can be thinking more about generally?
Kellie Thomas (02:44):
Yeah. Well, thank you Laura. It's certainly one of my favorite topics right now. I feel like it's coming up more and more with different clients we're seeing across the spectrum, including retail clients. And it's really about getting beyond the traditional and I don't want to say basic, but the health and welfare that we all think of, the 401(k) plan, those types of things that were there for full-time employees. It's getting harder and harder to find help at any level and employers want to do something that sets them apart.
Kellie Thomas (03:13):
So there's a lot of enhancements that can be done within the health and welfare space and within the 401(k) space. But really in terms of showing employees, signaling to employees that an employer is sensitive to their needs is thinking about their life outside of the retail space or the office or wherever they may be working. So I kind of put the benefits into these different categories. So biggest one right now that I would say I'm seeing are family-building benefits or benefits that are sensitive to different life challenges that parents may have, that people who are taking care of their parents may have. And so for example, within the last year, I would say the number of employers reaching out for adoption, at surrogacy programs has really gone through the roof.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (04:04):
I saw a doula thing.
Kellie Thomas (04:05):
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (04:05):
I thought that was really cool.
Kellie Thomas (04:06):
That's right. Doula benefits are getting to be really popular. So something like that is a good example. It can be run traditionally through a health plan, a doula benefit. There can be ways to offer something like that outside of a full ERISA plan. So if you don't have, for example, eligibility for your part-time employees, you have to be careful because one of the things you don't want to do is accidentally create an ERISA plan when you don't mean to, which is where we come into help.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (04:33):
That's why we need you.
Kellie Thomas (04:35):
But those are examples of the types of things. I even just recently had a client, SNOO's. I don't know if you remember those from when your kids were little, but the very expensive bassinets that babies can sleep in. And I think they can simulate a car moving. Well, they're a rental program.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (04:51):
I used to drive my kid around, I'm not that old. But I needed to get one of those.
Kellie Thomas (04:56):
Exactly. And they're expensive. And there are rental programs for them. So an employer's putting in a benefit where they're basically facilitating an employee's ability to rent a SNOO when they need one, when they have a newborn. So it's just that, it's a holistic thinking. Another one just kind of along the same lines, Milk Stork is the company that helps fly breast milk around the country for working parents who are breastfeeding and need to be able to do that. So again, that doesn't necessarily have to be run through a health plan and can be offered beyond your traditional full-time employees when you're trying to incentivize folks.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (05:31):
So when you're looking at, I often get the question, "Okay, I want to do more than a T-shirt or a Koozie for my drink, but I don't have the money to do these huge investments." So what kind of other things are you seeing? And when you see those, what kind of considerations should an employer thinks they accidentally don't create a taxable benefit or something that's going to be problematic?
Kellie Thomas (05:55):
Yeah, absolutely. So the nice thing about any kind of these reimbursement benefits that you can do... So now we'll go back to adoption, surrogacy, tuition reimbursement is a big one that comes up because higher education is expensive. It's something that is an attractive benefit for employees. You can control costs on that because you can set things like per course limits, for example, with a tuition benefit or annual limits. And so it's a way to say, "Hey, we really know." Health insurance can be a big unknown, especially for a self-insured plan where an employer's paying claims directly. These are benefits where you really know how is this going to affect my bottom line if employees are taking advantage of them?
Kellie Thomas (06:37):
Challenges, of course. Anytime you're offering benefits like that, there can be tax considerations. So certain adoption benefits, tuition benefits, those types of things can be offered on a pre-tax basis. But there are, of course, as you can imagine, under the code, lots of rules, lots of limits, ways they need to be documented to make sure that they're compliant and you're not running afoul of anything as none of us want to when it comes to the IRS.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (07:01):
One of the things that I've seen some of my clients do is they have a SWAG program. So they have an internal store almost that when you do well, you get credits toward it and they can go buy their branded merchandise. How does that fit in a gamut? How easy is that to set up, et cetera?
Kellie Thomas (07:18):
Yeah, those are I think fairly easy to set up. And again, quantifiable, so you kind of know what that cost is going to look like. Those are the types of benefits for the most part that are going to be taxable. So that is always something to be aware of. There are IRS rules about de minimis things. So to your beer Koozie example, something small like that may be a de minimis benefit that you can just hand out to everybody and it's not taxable. Once you do things like gift cards or anything a little bit higher up in terms of value, there are tax considerations. But I don't think that's prohibitive. I think that's still something that can provide value to employees. And really, if you're talking branded merchandise, a sense of cohesion...
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (07:56):
Kellie Thomas (07:57):
Things like that...
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (07:58):
I love my Jackson Lewis backpack that I got.
Kellie Thomas (08:00):
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (08:02):
And I am not generally, I'm a little bit woozy, but I love to wear my Jackson Lewis backpack. So I actually think it does create this sense of not only branding out when I'm walking around with it, but just sense of belonging.
Kellie Thomas (08:12):
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (08:13):
Like that. So I think it's really good.
Kellie Thomas (08:13):
Kellie Thomas (08:15):
And at a time like this, that's such an important thing because people are looking for more than just a place to clock in and out of and the more that that's recognized and acknowledged, I think build that team that you want to keep your folks around.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (08:27):
And I assume that some benefits can qualify for favorable tax treatment if it's structured a certain way. So what do we do in that instance?
Kellie Thomas (08:35):
Yeah. So that's a really good example. So going back to, and I mentioned the adoption surrogacy a lot and the tuition benefits, because truly if you said, what are the big ones I'm seeing...
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (08:44):
It's hot right now.
Kellie Thomas (08:45):
Those are the big ones because they appeal to employees at all levels and all different ages and all the like. And so, those are the ones that can be a little tricky just in terms of what's being offered. So using the example of tuition benefits, an employer can, with most tuition benefits, offer them pre-tax up to $5,250 a year. What I'm seeing a lot more now is employers who are saying, "That's great, but I also want to give more because the guy next door is giving $5,250 a year". So you can certainly have something like that, where it is pre-tax you get the benefit of that up to that annual limit, but you can then also offer more than that and just be aware of the issue it needs to be a taxable benefit, which I think from an employee's perspective, they're just happy to get more tuition money. It's worth it, even if it needs to be taxed.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (09:35):
Got it. And one of the things that I was seeing when I'm talking about labor and just the labor movement that's going on. So that's actually how we initially got linked up...
Kellie Thomas (09:46):
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (09:47):
Was that, there was some benefit issues going on in campaigns that I was seeing where COVID and the scheduling impacted the ability for people to get access to benefits. So what are any lessons learned that you and I have talked about that we can share about scheduling restrictions and really Monday morning quarterbacking like, "Ooh, should we make this eligible at this level?" That kind of thing. What are you seeing?
Kellie Thomas (10:12):
Yeah, well, Laura, it's funny that is I watched your caffeinated organizing presentation, which I very much enjoyed and that was one of my biggest takeaways. It's just that if... Retention and incentivizing employees with benefits is only as good as them actually being eligible to get those benefits. So from that perspective, I think it's definitely, if you're broadening, you want to make sure that you're not over promising under delivering if anything, it's the opposite. So that if there's a 15 hour a week or a 20 hour a week or something like that in terms of eligibility criteria that people really do have access to those benefits. It helps also on the pre-tax side, because many, most, I would say pre-tax benefits have requirements that they can't discriminate in favor of highly compensated employees. And so, one of the ways to just pass that test and not have to worry about it so much is to make everybody eligible. So when it's something like a tuition benefit, rather than saying, it's just for full-time employees or just for 25, 30 hour week employees, you can make it something that's accessible to everyone.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (11:19):
Especially when you're in a retail space where hours can vary according to season and they do fluctuate a good bit. It makes it less tumultuous for the employee, if you can make it either at a lower threshold or at least when store managers are out there cutting hours that they have, but there is some kind of feel safe to make sure that, that issue is at least being considered, that would cut it off.
Kellie Thomas (11:45):
Yeah, absolutely, because I have this little hobby right now where when you walk around retail spaces, also restaurant type spaces, there's signs up now with employee benefits and it's always health benefits, 401(k) and tuition reimbursement is always on that list. So that just goes to that point. If it's on your list on a sign posted outside your building or somewhere in your store, it should pretty much be available.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (12:08):
It should be available to your employees. It's a bad look.
Kellie Thomas (12:11):
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (12:12):
Read the fine print.
Kellie Thomas (12:14):
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (12:15):
Well, one of the other things that I've actually heard a lot of inquiries about are commuter benefits and transportation benefits. What are you seeing in that space?
Kellie Thomas (12:24):
Yeah, that's another one and it kind of ties in well, because there are a lot of cities and localities that are, there's DC, I believe New Jersey has that have requirements for commuter benefits. And so that's something always to keep an eye on, but even beyond that, they are also a benefit that can be offered on a pre-tax basis in a lot of circumstances. And they can be something that either the employer contributes to. So for example, gets Metro cards for everybody in New York, but you're also allowed to structure them so that it's employees setting aside pre-tax money. So then really it gives them the tax benefit. It encourages commuting, which is good for all the green...
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (13:04):
Kellie Thomas (13:05):
Environment, yeah. And also isn't a huge cost. I mean, it's ultimately administrative costs for the employer, but the cash into the program is the employee. So I see those types of benefits as a win-win all the way around.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (13:18):
What about bicycle commuting and some other things because as we're thinking about generational bicycling, that kind of thing, what kind of benefits are you seeing in that regard?
Kellie Thomas (13:26):
Yeah, that's a funny one because with the tax reform that happened at the end of 2018, it actually, they don't have the ability to do the bike commuting on the same pre-tax basis that it used to be. But I believe that sun sets in a few years, so it's not one that I get asked about a lot. What I see more are, especially in the cities and especially when they're...
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (13:48):
When I'm in California and San Francisco, there's lots of bikes.
Kellie Thomas (13:51):
Exactly. And again, that's the thing too. You can still provide the benefit. It may, you know what I mean?
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (13:55):
Kellie Thomas (13:55):
And I think that it's worth it sometimes even if it is a taxable benefit because it's going to be heavily utilized.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (14:01):
Got it. And which kind of trends are you seeing on 401(k) enhancements? I know a lot of retailers actually had to cut out their matching during COVID because of the world shutdown for a time. And a lot of our clients had to unfortunately stop operations at least to bear bones for a few months. What kind of enhancements are you seeing kind of reemerge?
Kellie Thomas (14:25):
Yeah, it's funny because I have a lot of plans where we amended the plan around April 2020 to stop the match. And then we amended the plan again in January 2021 just started up again. So we're definitely seeing those kind of features, just employers, straight contributions, sometimes called profit sharing contributions come back. Matching contributions, certainly because match is great because it really incentivizes employees to also put their money into the plan, which is the whole point of 401(k) really is to get employees actively saving for retirement.
Kellie Thomas (15:00):
And so seeing more of those and seeing those go up, seeing more questions from employers, all across the spectrum, including retail who want benchmarking. They want to know what their competitors are doing and they want to know what it looks like. And 401(k) is, it's easy to do, I mean, it's easy to add it back in. Really, it's a plan amendment. Sometimes you can even say, if you decide to do it midyear, you may have the ability depending on your structure to go all the way back for the whole year. So it can be a nice bump for employees. And I think it's one that's appreciated and one that there's really good, easy messaging that comes from that when you're adding or enhancing employer contributions.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (15:38):
So one of the things that I had heard of that I really don't understand is this 401(k) enhancement regarding an employer match on student loan payments. So student loan payments are really hot topic right now because of the administration's bill on trying to deal with student loan payments by the government. But what are we doing with the 401(k)? Like to explain that to me, how that's center related?
Kellie Thomas (16:03):
Yeah, we are waiting. So there is some guidance, but it was specific to the employer that put it in. But essentially what it is, is rather than say me, needing to defer a hundred dollars a paycheck in order to get a match of $20 or whatever the formula is. If you have this feature in your plan, I take my hundred dollars instead of putting it in the plan, I'm paying my student loans with it. But the employer, we work it out with an arrangement with the employer, they see it and they still make the match. So it's essentially giving me matching contributions on amounts that I would've put into my 401(k), but I needed them to make my student loan payments.
Kellie Thomas (16:39):
And so that's a little bit of an evolving area. There's going to be more guidance forthcoming on it, but I think it's a relatively popular, I see it toward the end of every year. That's when we see movement on retirement plan, reform, enhancements, that type of thing from Congress because it's pretty bipartisan for the most part. And so that's certainly something that I know some employers are doing... Right now, we're saying, if to the extent can, we may suggest waiting while we get further guidance on exactly the nuances of the structure there. But I think that's in a couple of years, it'll be like, "Oh yeah, that's been there all along. Hasn't it?" Because it makes so much sense as a benefit.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (17:17):
And so essentially if the employee has student loan debt that they can't pay, essentially the employer does a match as if they had like they're saying.
Kellie Thomas (17:26):
That's exactly right. So you don't miss out on the match during all that time when you're trying to keep up with your loan payments.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (17:32):
The other thing during the great resignation and just the fight for talent, you see a lot of cash incentives.
Kellie Thomas (17:39):
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (17:40):
So talk to me about what cash incentives you're seeing right now.
Kellie Thomas (17:43):
So those can be anything from an annual or a quarterly type structured bonus program to sign on bonuses, retention bonuses, we're seeing a lot of those. In a way, for example, traditionally, we may not have seen mid-level and potentially lower level employees getting things like sign on and retention bonuses and we're seeing that more and more. Now they are taxable, but generally across the board going to be taxable. And you always want to be careful with anybody who is a non-exempt employee because there could be issues with just wage an hour, figuring out overtime rates and the like. So it's the kind of thing shameless plug for Jackson Lewis here. But if you call us with a question on this, we always can work together. So me as a benefits attorney can reach out to a wage an hour attorney and make sure you're kind of buttoned up on all sides from a compliance perspective.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (18:30):
And so from that perspective, what kind of bonuses are we talking about? So we're talking about referral bonuses, sign on bonuses, retention, spot bonuses, any others that you need to consider?
Kellie Thomas (18:42):
I didn't mention in much detail spot bonuses. And I mean, I worked in retail for most of high school and college and we had them back then. And it's even, it's something that clients are still asking about to this day, which is maybe there's an incentive program to get people, to sign up for the store credit card or some kind of customer service feedback. And you get $20 bucks on the spot, which when you're working in retail and it's right before your lunch break and someone hands you $20, that's a pretty nice little benefit.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (19:09):
Makes you feel good.
Kellie Thomas (19:10):
Makes you feel good. So again, tax issues there, you just want to know it's meant to be informal, but also from a compliance perspective, we recommend some formality and that was tracking.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (19:21):
And when you do that, are you thinking about telling employee or employers to gross it up or what's your advice on that generally for a best practice?
Kellie Thomas (19:30):
I think gross up can make a lot of sense, especially with lower wage workers potentially. So you want them to get the full benefit of a bonus like that. And I think the easiest way to do it is through a paycheck. So it may be like you get some kind of small bonus for your customer service targets this week. If you run it through the paycheck, then you don't have to worry so much about the withholding issues, it just all happens naturally. But again, it's something for employers to keep an eye on if they have a program. And I don't think it's as widespread as it maybe used to be, but we're actually, I mean, we really got cash handed to us back in the day.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (20:04):
Well I think the gift cards still happen in the retail stores, right? So there individual retail stores where manager is trying to incentivize. So what is the safeguards that should be in place when they're passing out those cards?
Kellie Thomas (20:18):
So that's a big one because as I said earlier, there are internal revenue code rules about de minimis fringe benefits, but they carve out gift cards. And I think the reason behind that is probably because de minimis, you're thinking, "Oh, it's more administrative hassle than it's worth to really make an employer record this", but a gift card you know exactly what the value is. So it should be accounted for on their W2.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (20:42):
On the employees W2.
Kellie Thomas (20:43):
On the employees W2.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (20:45):
Yeah, got it. So sabbaticals, I've been reading lots of articles as I've been nerding out on this whole, how can we incentivize, helping retailers think creatively about just really engagement of their employees and sabbaticals used to be a thing for professors.
Kellie Thomas (20:59):
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (21:00):
And that was kind of the only place you ever heard of it, but we're hearing about it in more space. What have you seen on that?
Kellie Thomas (21:05):
Yeah, definitely. So it's basically things like once you've been here for five years, you get an extra bonus sabbatical of two weeks. Once you've been here for 10 years, it's four weeks, once you have... And so those are becoming more and more common there. I actually happen to know they're common in the publishing world a lot and one of... So from the benefits side, what can be a little tricky about those is you want to be careful that you don't accidentally make your folks ineligible for benefits if they're out too long.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (21:32):
Kellie Thomas (21:34):
You always want to think about the whole picture when you're offering something like that, but certainly that's becoming more common as well.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (21:39):
And we have all of these different, I've also heard about leave donation banks, and now there's so many different municipalities and state laws and then federal law on leave requirements. So how does someone manage that minefield?
Kellie Thomas (21:57):
Yeah, that's a tough one because you have to be careful there's tax issues, not only for the employee receiving the donation, but also for the employee making the donation. So that's the kind of thing. Sometimes we get questions after the fact when something's already been implemented. But things like leave donation is a good one to kind of bring right away as you're setting it up to make sure that you have it structured in a way that is as tax advantageous as possible, because those can be a little bit tricky. But certainly, especially in this day and age when healthcare is expensive, but COVID, we just went through it. People who are out of work for long periods of time. And it's really when it builds comradery, I think it does that environment within an organization of helping each other out. But it's not quite always as easy as it sounds.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (22:49):
And as I doing the labor space and looking at issues that employees are upset about and going to unions for. Actually one of the things that we've heard is they want more flexibility. They want direct access and have a voice. And the flexibility really strikes me because retail doesn't lend itself to...
Kellie Thomas (23:09):
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (23:10):
Really flexibility because one of being a retail worker is a lot of times you have to work different shifts, but now there's scheduling ordinances to talk about predictability, that kind of thing. But what are we seeing in the flexible hours space?
Kellie Thomas (23:25):
In the retail workspace, as you said, it's harder, but things like there can be job sharing arrangements. There can be longer shifts, shorter work week. That type of thing, which I think is...
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (23:34):
Four day work week options.
Kellie Thomas (23:34):
Four day work week, yeah. So I think that's really how it manifests there. Obviously, for the office workers for the retail organization, you may have more people working remote, but I think the issues are a little bit different there than what we're seeing boots on the ground. People who need to physically be present in the building.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (23:51):
Well, I know I could talk to you all day about benefits, but before we close, why don't you just mention some other voluntary benefits that you're seeing that maybe our retailers should consider that we haven't already talked about?
Kellie Thomas (24:04):
Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of voluntary benefits out there. Sometimes employers will offer them and employees don't really know they exist. So communication is a real key.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (24:14):
I'm always telling them it's only as good as when the employee knows about it. Right?
Kellie Thomas (24:17):
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (24:18):
So communication is always a key.
Kellie Thomas (24:19):
Exactly. But things that have been around forever, but I think are getting more attention now, legal plan. So the thing where you may be able to sign up for a year and they help you write your will, that type of thing. Pet insurance is a really big one. Especially everybody got pets during COVID and pets are expensive. So that's another one that can be nice for employees to have. Identity theft protection in this day and age. Supplemental things like long term care or supplemental life or disability benefits where the employees, it's not mandatory, but the employee has the option based on their circumstances to go in and opt for larger benefits.
Kellie Thomas (24:54):
And then things like employee discounts, partnerships with other organizations where you may say a retail company may partner with a computer company and give some kind of discounts for employees who buy through that program on a laptop. There are purchasing power is actually one that got called to my attention when I thought was interesting, which is actually you can connect employees with this site where they can go in and they say it's after tax money, but they can put money towards big ticket purchase items like TVs, iPads, things like that. And it's just a way to facilitate of a savings account for your employee for special purchases.
Kellie Thomas (25:33):
Last one that is kind of a favorite of mine, because it seems so obvious, but it's so great I'm sure, which are prepaid gas and grocery cards. Maybe prices are coming down a smidge right now. But I think a lot of employees would be very happy to get a prepaid gas card at any point. Again, have to add the caveat, it's probably taxable. So you're going to want to look at that, but it is the kind of thing that I think is it's a lot of bang for your buck when it comes to showing employees that you understand, "Hey, it's expensive to get to work right now."
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (26:04):
And I can tell you, living in California, the gas is very expensive and I'm now in Baltimore where I spend some time as you know. And I would like to use that gas card in Baltimore versus you'll go a lot further...
Kellie Thomas (26:16):
A lot better.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (26:18):
Well, thank you so much for spending time with me today and talking about benefits. I'm certainly going to be, you're always top of mind when I think about my retailers. But I want our clients to be thinking creatively because it's tough for retailers right now. And that engagement is harder when you don't have the funds to do the big, wonderful things that everybody wants to do, but what's available. So I really appreciate your time, thanks so much.
Kellie Thomas (26:42):
Yeah, thank you, Laura. This was my favorite topic. So always happy to do it.
Laura Pierson-Scheinberg (26:47):
Alitia Faccone (26:48):
Thank you for joining us on We Get Work, please tune into our next program where we will continue to tell you not only what's legal, but what is effective. We Get Work is available to stream and subscribe on apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Libsyn, Pandora, SoundCloud, Spotify, Stitcher, and YouTube. For more information on today's topic, our presenters and other Jackson Lewis resources visit jacksonlewis.com. As a reminder, this material is provided for informational purposes only. It is not intended to constitute legal advice, nor does it create a client lawyer relationship between Jackson Lewis and any recipient.